Come See the Softer Side
No Regrets
Women are very sexual creatures. As a woman, I know this. Many of you, our readers, are women, so you probably know this as well. And for all you men, you have either been with women or know women, so you are most likely aware too. Anywhoozle, Lindsay Lohan, Anne Heche, Katy Perry, Cynthia Nixon, et. al, with their swip-swap-eroos and Kissed a Girls have now sparked a new line of research which has tried to uncover why women leave men for other women. Surprisingly, men having assholic and childish tendencies didn’t even make the cut! Hiyoooooooo!
Of course, women are “more attracted to the person” than the gender and blah, blah, blah. Women’s sexuality is described as “changeable” and “less rigid” than a man’s and because of this, we go with the flow and hold love to a different sort of a standard than men. As much as we women judge others, we also hate to be judged, especially about our choices in love. Cynthia Nixon defends her relationship with Christine Marinoni by saying, “I’m just a woman who fell in love with a woman.” Aww! And I’m just a girl, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her. Anyone?
Somewhere along the line, society has become more accepting of alternative lifestyles, opposite marriages even, or at least society has properly feigned this approval. Regardless, individuals feel more free to explore. Women see other women as sexy? Awesome, no need to hide it. Want to see what it’s like to taste her cherry chapstick? Stellar, give it a shot. As Binnie Klein, a Connecticut-based psychotherapist and lecturer in Yale’s department of psychiatry so poignantly said,
“Most [women] are afraid that if they don’t go for it, they’ll end up with regrets.”
So, who among you has dipped her toe in the curious pool? Who has locked lips with the softer side? Has anyone poked the turtle?? Tell me yours and I’ll tell you mine, wink, wink, nod, nod, shimmy, shimmy, shimmy.
Tags: Addicted to Addiction, sex, sexual behavior, women
This entry was posted on Friday, April 24th, 2009 at 7:30 AM and is filed under Love Lust and Havarti Dill. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:35 AM
Chelsea - PETA Protector says:Ok fine, I’ll start it. I was the stereotypical college gal who made out with other gals. but only twice. i promise.
I have a best friend who’s my complete soul mate. We’d both leave our fiancees for each other, except vagina is disgusting. Life is tricky like that.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:57 AM
baby fish mouth says:I definitely thought of the Notting Hill quote when I saw Cynthia Nixon’s. And yes, the only reason I’ve ever considered dating women is because most men are childish jerktards. No offense, to the like 6 of you who aren’t.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:58 AM
baby fish mouth says:Chelsea I think I could love with vagina so long as it’s didn’t have to get anywhere near mine.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:58 AM
baby fish mouth says:love = live. Freudian typo.
April 24th, 2009 at 8:04 AM
Chelsea - PETA Protector says:bfm– Who among us hasn’t loved with their vagina?
April 24th, 2009 at 8:26 AM
Addicted to Addiction says:I would totally be a lesbian if I didn’t have to lick it. The vag thing is not for me. I like a good peen. But girls are so pretty! And little!
April 24th, 2009 at 10:36 AM
lava says:I do think women are hot and I have some manly tendencies, but I love dick too much to be fussin with toys and cha chas.
April 24th, 2009 at 10:58 AM
vodkafanta says:I wonder if anybody’s investigating how the “fluidity of women’s sexuality” is socially constructed?
This is just my hypothesis, but I feel like society’s a lot more accepting of women experimenting with women than men doing the same. Like, if I kissed a girl (even a bunch of times), no one would necessarily speculate that I was gay. I feel like if a guy repeatedly kissed a guy, people would definitely question his sexuality. It’s a shitty double standard that stigmatizes men’s homosexuality.
I think that’s a big part of why women are more “go with the flow” than men… because we don’t get punished for it the same way, socially. I feel like in a completely equal society, the differences might disappear.
Anyhoo, yes, I’ve kissed a girl and I liked it.
::cue shitty dance song::
April 24th, 2009 at 11:30 AM
TheHobo says:vodkafanta: Well there is also the aspect that men like girl-on-girl action. So, it’s not only acceptable to experiment, it’s encouraged…so long as there are men watching (which is why I hate the line “I hope my boyfriend doesn’t mind”). This is also where the term “barsexual” came from. That is, I’m not gay, but if I’m drunk and at a bar and there are men around encouraging me/watching me/just around, I’ll probably make out with whatever hot chick is handy.
I have to admit I have been barsexual. But in my defense, all the women I have kissed (minus one–get to her in a minute) are self-proclaimed bi and my friends. Which…seems weird to make out with your friends, but actually it felt a lot more safe than kissing some stranger (male or female). And, frankly, women are better kissers, if you like a nice gentle lingering kiss, which I do. For me, it’s kissing just for the sake of kissing, without any thought that it will, or should (minus one bathroom incident that got uncomfortable and lead to a Talk) go any further. And personally, the moment men start paying attention, whooping or hollering, I stop. If I’m gonna kiss a woman, it’s gonna me for my enjoyment (and hers) and no one else’s. Also, even drunk, I find that level of attention embarrassing :-P
My one friend who claims not to be bi, but definitely barsexual has this thing with her husband where he really likes watching her make out with other women. So she does…friends, strangers, whoever. She says she does it for him, though she seems to also enjoy it, and actually it kind of creeps me out the way he just silently stares all intently…
Now, I also run with a pretty open minded crowd that allows that any couple can have any sort of relationship (including poly) so long as all parties know and agree to the rules. AND in that spirit, there have been men who have been able to safely make out with other men in that same barsexual spirit and not call themselves gay, or even bi. Then again, the joke in the scene is that everyone is gay, regardless of who they are with, so… :-P
But for myself–I’m not gay and don’t even think of myself as bi because, other than my personal theory that sex is sex and sex feels good, and sex with pretty much anyone half-way decent at it would feel good (thus having sex with a woman would feel good…and I’m not squeamish about the different elements of it) which goes with the idea that kissing women is fun–kissing women doesn’t give me the tinglies. It feels good like a massage feels good, and can even make me sexually aroused…but at that point I start looking at the men, because even a bad kiss from a man gives me more tinglies than a great kiss from a woman, which means my personal body chemistry/genes/whatever is wired toward men.
But I fully know that, thanks to my “experimentation” if you want to call it that. And I accept it. Honestly, I wish women did give me the tinglies, because I get along with women so much easier than men…but I’m wired the way I’m wired, and just have to accept it :-P
April 24th, 2009 at 11:40 AM
SeaKat says:vf, I totally agree with you about the effect of social approval on the “fluidity” of sexuality.
Although, one funny thing I’ve noticed is that I have a few female friends who get totally turned on by cute men kissing (or more).
That SO does nothing for me. I’d say that, among my close female friends, the ratio is about 50:50. But I don’t have that many women that I could ask and expect an honest answer! So I’m taking my question to the ‘Squeers.
Is it common for women to be turned on by boy-on-boy action the way many men are by girl-girl action?
April 24th, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Helen Skor says:Boy on boy doesn’t do much for me, but girl on girl totally gets me hot. Not sure why. I would never consider myself gay, or even bi, but the idea of being with a woman definitely doesn’t gross me out. I don’t think it’s that I’m hetero, or homo, or bi . . . it’s that I’m just a very sexual creature.
Also, I will be moving to wherever Hobo lives so that I can become a part of her circle of friends, because they sound AWESOME!
April 24th, 2009 at 11:54 AM
vodkafanta says:Yay! I love this conversation!
I can only speak from my experience and the people I know, but I’d say (among my group of friends) it’s a lot more common to be turned on by girl-on-girl action, even among the women. I know a lot of chicks who would easily watch lesbian porn, but can’t watch gay male porn. Same for straight dudes, obviously. That said, I think there’s no biological or natural reason that would explain this imbalance. I feel like society’s a lot more open to lesbianism (maybe because it’s fetishized and commercialized) than they are to men’s homosexuality, so dude-on-dude makes a lot of people uncomfortable… not everyone, naturally, but a fair number of people.
TheHobo: It’s so funny how right you are about the whole “as long as there are men around” thing. I find (again, just judging by my friends) that most of the guys I know love lesbians, as long as they conform to the standard ideals of hotness–which are arguably patriarchal. The second lesbians start ignoring what men find hot and express themselves alternatively, these guys become a lot less accepting, aka. they make fun of butch lesbians to no end, despite the fact that it’s arguably the same thing taking place… except for the fact that no one is counting on them as an audience.
Yes, some of my friends are jerks. I guess that’s the moral of the story.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:02 PM
chelsea says:L Word type lesbians yes Rosie O’Donnel type lesbians no
April 24th, 2009 at 12:34 PM
TheHobo says:I get turned on by boy-on-boy action. My favorite parts of Six Feet Under actually. But, probably I’m as shallow as the men and only like watching pretty boys kiss ;-) But seriously, twice the pecs, twice the abs, twice the sculpted jaw lines, twice the cute boy butt. Seriously, men have the best butts. No cellulite…
Helen: Yeah, my friends are pretty great. I was very sheltered when I first met them (we’re talking sweet 26 and never been kissed sheltered…or drunk, or…lots of things) and their total acceptance helped me totally break out of my shell. To this day whenever any of them gets a little tipsy they pull me aside and talk about much I’ve changed and how happy they are I have :-P I’m happier too. I never have to edit myself around them…
Come out and visit anytime!
vodkafanta: My friends who actually are full on Lesbian get negative reactions from certain kind of men as well. I think they are both hot, but they aren’t LA hot, if you know what I mean. But actually, as one of them and I talk about often, men are very threatened by female sexuality in general. That is, gay or straight, if a woman is in charge of her own sexuality and does things for her own pleasure, as opposed to feeding into a man’s fetish. I call it “The All-Mighty Male Gaze.” A lot of women are ruled by it, and men count on that. And it perpetuates this competitiveness between women–who is gonna get The Gaze, keep it, demand it. And usually, the biggest slut wins (slut as a mentality…sleeping with a lot of people doesn’t make you a slut. Why, or how you go about conducting all those interactions, does).
To continue my soapbox, too many women let men control their sexuality. They use sex to entice/control men, and they think that they have power. But I always say, that sort of power is passive–you only have power over a man as long as he is attracted to you (never mind how that can go horrible wrong when he thinks he can have sex even if you don’t want to). Which means you have to constantly fight to keep that attraction going, and I feel like many women, in fighting the sex fight, compromise themselves. Sex never becomes about what they want, but some Cosmo version of “365 ways to please your man.”
My Lesbian friends threaten men not just because they prefer women, but because they have a very active and satisfying sex life that has nothing to do with male desire. Yes, women can be perfectly sexually satisfied without men. In fact, for some women, the “lesbian” sex acts are really the ONLY way they can reach that level of satisfaction (regardless of the gender of their partner).
As my last soap box statement I offer up this: the continually widespread discussion of and acceptance of female masturbation is the best hope for the future of feminism.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:43 PM
baby fish mouth says:This is a brilliant conversation. I’d like to add a couple thoughts - despite any curiosities I have ever had, I’ve never kissed a woman and I refuse to be barsexual for the precise reason TheHobo just mentioned: I don’t like the idea that I am doing it for show, and letting some leering man determine my sexual behaviors. Not to mention most men can get turned on if you eat an orange just right, so it’s completely unnecessary to be kissing other women when you could be getting your vitamin C and having the same effect on him.
Also, I think a lot of us are exposed to porn earlier and earlier in our sexual development, and I have to wonder if the way women are more significantly sexualized in porn and in general culture, creates this viewpoint for us - seeing things from a man’s perspective, and being able to see other women as sexy.
I don’t know many men who pride themselves on the ability to step into another’s shoes, so perhaps a typical lack of empathy from men, sort of kills the idea that men would see from our perspective and find other men sexy.
April 24th, 2009 at 12:59 PM
vodkafanta says:bfm: that’s exactly what I mean! So much of media is created from a masculine perspective that women are used to seeing women as sexual objects from an early age. It feels natural. We’re trained to be able to use both the “masculine” and “feminine” gaze… which I think is why barsexuality and lesbian fetishism is only geared toward women who are media-standard attractive. It’s easy to understand that kind of attractiveness, because we are all (whether we’re male or female) spoonfed it from childhood.
TheHobo: Incredibly well said. I totally agree, especially about the male gaze, and the passivity of women’s sexuality even when it’s positioned as a mechanism of control. I work in the bar industry, and sexuality comes into work a lot. It’s kind of inevitable, simply because you don’t always have the time to present anything beyond your physicality to the people around you. That said, I’ve always noticed it’s a very interesting mix between power and powerlessness… as long as you can hold the draw of whoever you’re dealing with, you’re more or less in control. However, the second you either lose that, or give into your own desires, or stop giving a shit, you’re kind of stripped of that power. And I guess because it’s not self-given power, it’s not really power at all, in the first place.
April 24th, 2009 at 1:56 PM
DonnaMartin says:i’ve licked a girl where she pees before. once. it was kind of fun. it was my friend’s girlfriend, who is also my friend. her vadge was very user friendly. clean. not stinky. oh and we were pretty wasted (obviously).
i’m definitely all for the peen, but i had always wondered what it was like, and now i know!
i’m still friends with both of them, and they are still together.
:)
that’s my sapphic story!
April 24th, 2009 at 1:58 PM
DonnaMartin says:i’ve kissed more than a few girls in my day as well, but only “gone downtown” the one time.
April 24th, 2009 at 2:00 PM
DonnaMartin says:oh and the female friend’s boyfriend (also my friend) was there, so it’s not like there was any adultery involved.
ok, now i sound like a total freak, huh?
April 24th, 2009 at 2:19 PM
TheHobo says:LOVE this discussion!
BFM and vodkafanta (okay, I’ve been copying and pasting your name and I just realized it was two words put together. Also, a good drink :-P): I agree with the idea that we are all taught from very early on to sexualize women and see them from a more or less male perspective. I personally get a little miffed that I’m supposed to agree that women are just better looking than men. It’s not that I don’t think women are hot. But if I’m gonna look at someone with their clothes off I’d rather it be Bale than Angelina. Men are good looking y’all! Did I mention the butts? And the abs? And those oh-so-kissable jaw lines? We need more Bale shout-outs in life to remind women that it’s okay to be attracted to men.
Which goes directly to the heart of what VF is saying: “However, the second you either lose that, or give into your own desires, or stop giving a shit, you’re kind of stripped of that power.” The weird catch-22 is that in order for women to maintain sexual power they have to not like sex, or at least maintain the illusion that they don’t like it as much as men. The moment a man realizes a woman wants him, the power shifts to his side. And then women are really in trouble because suddenly her orgasms belong to him (that is, she NEEDS him in order to reach sexual satisfaction). She is jock-whipped (so to speak) and he can treat her anyway he wants to.
And BFM’s point: “I don’t know many men who pride themselves on the ability to step into another’s shoes, so perhaps a typical lack of empathy from men, sort of kills the idea that men would see from our perspective and find other men sexy” is a big one–but actually I think it goes with that first idea that we have all been socialized to think that women are sexy (and, in a way, that men aren’t–or at least, most men).
Men want sex and women are sexy. There is no need for a man to try and see from a woman’s perspective that other men are sexy because sex isn’t what women want. Women, of course, only want security, and that means money. The myth remains that we’d rather have money than sex (and are very willing to trade sex, which we don’t actually seem to ever enjoy except in a phony way to make men feel better about themselves, for money).
Because women supposedly don’t value sex for sex’s sake, they of course have all the power because they can make men do anything for sex (panty-whipped, if you will–I know the other I just hate the term :-P). Ironically, the male idea (and, historically, fear) is that women have insatiable sexual appetites and, more so then men, will do anything for sex.
Women sell the myth as part of the power struggle–I am such a sexual person and I need it so badly I will sit in a bar and make out with another woman (who of course suffers the same way I do). I may even make out with other men, or even you! I may or may not take articles of clothing off…man I’m so wild (for sex)!
And yet, when I finally go home with you, the sex will be all about your pleasure and so designed to ensnare you to me for forever, and for my own security, because really, I don’t actually care about my orgasm all that much anyway. Just show me the money.
Or even worse, a guy will finally get a woman back to his place and she’ll “just lay there,” leaving her sexual satisfaction entirely up to him. If she orgasms, he’s a god, if she doesn’t, she’s frigid. And if he orgasms, somehow it’s not credited to her at all, because men have been in charge of their own sexual satisfaction since they first began to play with themselves (usually at like age 8).
And you know what really messes all these power struggles up? When women take responsibility for their own sexual satisfaction, their own orgasms, and realize they don’t need men for them. Which is not the same as saying “women don’t need men.” Men jerk off, and they still seek out women, or other men, for sex and for companionship. It’s more fun in a pair.
Men are threatened by this because a woman who can reach the big O on her own doesn’t need him for sex. And a woman who can pay her own bills doesn’t need him for money/security. Why would she want him then?
Welcome to the insecurity that has plagued women for centuries…if I can’t fulfill your needs, why would you want me?
But the struggle continues because women don’t believe in their own ability to fulfill their own needs–instead they focus on finding ways to get other people to fulfill their needs for them. And men don’t believe that women will want them solely for their charms, so instead focus on ways they can get women to rely on them.
And basically, insecurities lock people in power struggles that no one can possibly ever actually win–because whoever cares the least wins. But not caring is the sadder position, in the end.
I, possibly naively, think that most decent people really just want that connection, that companionship that comes with all the great bonuses of really great sex and emotional and physical security (which isn’t necessarily all about money). They don’t want to play games, they don’t want to win–they want to tell someone how their day went, have a good meal, do something relaxing, have sex, and cuddle, or at least enjoy the oxytocin rush in some way before getting a good night’s sleep. :-P
But in the meantime, as a single person, I’m going to enjoy single life on my terms, and sometimes that means I enjoy making out with women, usually away from the eyes of men. Which is why I had to have a Talk in the woman’s bathroom…
April 24th, 2009 at 2:24 PM
TheHobo says:DM: No, but then we’ve already discussed my group of friends ;-) I don’t actually remember it, but I think I did too…there was a drunken night where my consiousness left me. That is, I was still awake and doing things, but my active memory was gone. It came back when I was in the bathtub with another, female, friend of mine. I had vague flashes of what *might* have happened, but no real memory; the next day I asked her if she was shaved, down there, and she said yes. That lines up with one particular flash memory of a particular view I had…
Man, I wrote a lot. I’m sorry :-(
April 24th, 2009 at 2:50 PM
baby fish mouth says:“The moment a man realizes a woman wants him, the power shifts to his side.”
I’ve seen that first hand. A man once told me flat out that if he slept with me, the ball would be back in my court, and he didn’t want that. Are you kidding me?? I hope there are some men who don’t act that way. I don’t use sex for manipulation as a rule and I’d like the same respect, good lord.
April 25th, 2009 at 10:22 AM
vodkafanta says:TheHobo: I think I love you. Not in a “talk in the bathroom” kind of way. Well, maybe. Whatever. That was brilliant.
April 25th, 2009 at 5:10 PM
TheHobo says:VF: *blush*
I’d talk with you in the bathroom any day :-)
But, er…just talk. You know. Unless we were both drunk anyway ;-)
April 25th, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Chelsea - PETA Protector says:So….Squeers are my favorite people. Here I thought guy on guy porn wasn’t as hot because it was hairy, but now I’ve seen it dissected and realize that’s like the tip of the iceberg. And seriously TheHobo, if you’re an ex-Mormon in WA state, I think you’re friends with my mom and I’m uncomfortable now. She always tells me about this young friend of hers (Like 26-ish) who used to be so sheltered but is opening up… plus my mom is an odd ball…I’ll stop now.
I <3 TS, seriously
April 26th, 2009 at 2:12 AM
TheHobo says:Chelsea–I am from WA state but am not a former Morman, and I’m 29-ish (actually, and for the first time around).
But I also <3 TS!!! :-D
April 27th, 2009 at 7:09 AM
AdmittedlyAddicted says:I can’t believe I missed this conversation. This conversation right here is exactly why I read this blog…